Episode 3 - Edinburgh Community Food project and Andrew Rendle

Transcript

Kirsty McIntosh  0:01
Hello, Kirsty McIntosh here. Welcome to the Scottish tech army podcast. This is Episode Three. We are three months old and 1000 strong. So congratulations to everybody what a wonderful, wonderful landmark to reach. Today's podcast is a bag of goodies that includes one of the charities that we are helping and an interview with one of our stalwart members of the tech army Andrew Rendell, I hope you enjoy. Very pleased to welcome today, Chris mantle of Edinburgh Community Food and one of the Scottish tech army volunteers Willie Bell. We've been working on a couple of projects with Edinburgh Community Food. So welcome to the podcast.

Chris Mantle  0:40
Thank you.

Willie Bell  0:41
morning Kirsty.

Kirsty McIntosh  0:43
Chris, can you tell us a little bit about Edinburgh Community Food? How did it come about? What does it What does it do?

Chris Mantle  0:49
Um, the food was set off in 1996. We've been around for 24 years, I guess that would make it and we're set up as a community organisation, obviously, because that's in the name, and really set up to tackle glaring health inequalities that were observed in Edinburgh, and in Leith in particular at that time, it was a bit more localised when it was set up. In terms of trying to reduce inequalities, we have always done this in two different ways, really - half the organisation is actually a social enterprise. So it's worked in fruit and vegetable delivery, and a few other dry goods as well to all kind of healthy, low cost, affordable food that kind of remit. And we would distribute this and sell it to community centres and community co-ops of which there used to be quite a few in Edinburgh. More recently, by recently, in the last 10 years or so, there's been increased home deliveries, where people can just pick and choose what they want in their weekly delivery. And then lastly, oh no, there's the hospital stalls as well we run stalls in the Royal Infirmary in the Western General here in Edinburgh. And lastly, and this has really grown in the last few years up until March funnily enough with delivery to offices, where thispro tapped into the Healthy Working Lives, programme, whereby offices can show that they're taking care of their staff's health in various different ways. And so we tap into that and buy fruit and vegetables and go along and do health talks as well for the staff for their lunch breaks and lunch times -that's the social enterprise side. The charity side, where I work with the development team, we tackle health inequalities in a different way. So the warehouse sides make the food available, and we will go into community groups set up cooking and nutrition courses and work with lower income and vulnerable communities across the whole city. We're city wide. And we might do, say, an eight week long cooking group and we'll meet every week or two, maybe three hours, we'll discuss nutrition, discuss food we're going to make together, and then at the end of the session, sit down and eat together as well so there's that breaking bread together and a reduction of social isolation, all the other benefits that that can have or how we feel so that's the development side of the organisation and that's what we were doing up until the current crisis kicked off. And then overnight, of course, all the offices closed down. So that part of our business, the social enterprise business, disappeared very, very quickly. We managed to pivot, what we do changed our direction. And, and really for us, it became overnight, moving from development work and office deliveries, to getting food to people's homes. And that is the lion's share of what we've been doing. Since then a little bit into the crisis. There was a network set up the vulnerable groups Food Network was set up for the whole of the city, being led by a City of Edinburgh Council and EVOC and we were part of that network from its inception. And this is a referral based system by pretty much anyone - you can self refer or you could refer someone else. You could phone up and and say that I'm struggling getting the medicines we're struggling getting pet food, I would really like some hot meals delivered, or cold prepared frozen meals like homemade ones, or we would like fresh produce so we can cook at home and that's where we would come in. So we've been supplying boxes of different sizes. Most common one is a family box, and it's got the food more or less for a week for a family of four. We've been supplying up to a thousand of these boxes each week, and delivering them, funnily enough to homes, so the development team all of a sudden in doing logistical support and lots of administration and supporting the warehouse team in this kind of enormous undertaking that we're all involved in. However, as we we've become much more streamlined now. The first few weeks were a bit of a guddle. But we're much more streamlined now which has allowed the development team to start thinking more about the development work again. So what can we do instead of face to face cooking groups, face to face training, or informal talks? Well of course it's all online now.

Kirsty McIntosh  5:01
Yeah. So right.

Chris Mantle  5:02
We're doing development sessions. We're doing programmes of health talks. And more recently still, we've been working with the City of Edinburgh Council. This is where the Tech Army is gonna start coming in for us. We've been working with City of Edinburgh Council on the Discover programme. Now this is a programme which has been running for I think about three years now, I think this is the third summer, and it's to tackle holiday hunger, actually, within the city. But it's not just about food. Food's, only part of it, there's lots of activities, online activities. Before Coronavirus, people would go into schools during the school holidays and there would be storytelling, there would be people that would bring in exotic animals. There'd be all sort of sports based activities there'd be cooking groups, the sessions that we would run, all this kind of stuff, as well as plenty of food. So how are we going to deliver this when we can't do it in person? So we've set up online delivery which has been more of these interactions is online talks and cooking sessions. But also, each week we're supplying all the families and it's about up to 140 of them that we're working with. We supply them all with a meal kit, everything they need in a paper bag or a box that they need to make fajitas,or need to make a korma or they need to make Moroccan dish, something like this. And we create a video with the help of the Scottish tech army. So the development team  - and we're only four - but we film in our kitchens and send the footage to the Scottish tech army and they've turned it into a lovely video that then goes up on the Facebook private Facebook group, its Discover programme so the families can watch the video and they can cook along with it. And the entire project so far we still one more week to finish huge success engagement from the families has just been a bit humbling.

Kirsty McIntosh  6:55
So this kind of came about in a slightly unusual kind of way. I suppose, didn't it Willie because we'd actually been involved with Edinburgh Community Food for an entirely unrelated, unrelated idea, which was to do with assisting in was it food distribution?

Willie Bell  7:12 
Yes,  as Chris alluded to we had an introduction to Edinburgh Community Food. It was via another charity that we had a call with. They referred us to a senior lecturer at Napier University. I had a call with the guy Dr. Neil Urquhart. He'd  had some dealings with Chris and Brenda Black who is the CEO of Edinburgh Community Food. So we've had a couple of visits on site to look at the delivery and Chris mentioned that  the warehouse are now delivering an unprecedented amount of food. So part of that, and I guess investigation that started in early June, Chris and I and Nick Callahan briefly met...the food delivery is ongoing. We're still looking at sort of uses cases, user requirements. And then Chris just pinged an email middle of June saying we've got some videos and it was really fortuitous that within the wider channel within the STA for food deliveries, I just put out a note, I sort of contacted Ewan Cameron, kept the resource team in the loop and lo and behold we had Kim Anderson. Kim's a graphic designer user experience, currently furloughed and living up in Arbroath and a guy Ricci Clark. Ricci had been an accountant who'd retrained as a data analyst, and he showed some interest and between them so Ricci has also got a sort of hobby of of kinda writing music and putting music to videos. He did the editing. And as Kim and Kim took the menus hat Chris alluded to and put text on the bottom of the videos and also created a menu. So we've turned around, Chris was it six videos I think you were doing in total, you'd already created the first one. But we've worked on five out of the six. And, and the videos are themed Chris's team. We had a North African Moroccan week we had our Chinese week we had a Scottish stovies week.

Chris Mantle  9:17
Next week, isn't it?

Willie Bell  9:19
And as Chris alluded to with Kim and Ricci, we take the videos, we send them back to Chris, Chris loads them onto the private Facebook site dcsl. And they've been hit by what is it? 135,  140 clients is it now Chris?

Chris Mantle  9:34
It's actually more than that in the private Facebook group. We're supplying up to 140 families 155 people, but also on our YouTube, a new YouTube channel as well. So they are publicly available.

Willie Bell  9:48
so think that, you know the benefit we're seeing Kirsty is it's hopefully twofold. So we went and to try and help solve a bigger logistical problem. And then maybe that's the beauty of going in, although we had to adhere to social distancing, etc. If Chris and I and Nick had never met, Chris may never have contacted us or if we hadn't been on site, we made that contact. Nick and I went back down to Leith and lo and behold, Kim and Ricci have got some great experience out of it. So has Chris hopefully  and we've produced a deliverable, and it's certainly been enlightening for me, you know every day is a school day as they say. And so we've produced something tangible in what, just over six weeks? I was looking back last night with the 19th of June, emailed me with no created five videos, and we're on this week is the.. hopefully for next week's publication, the final one.

Kirsty McIntosh  10:45 
Yeah, it's absolutely fantastic. And as you say, Willie, it's the it's that power of the network. It's the power of the volunteer force, if you like, you know, within within the community and actually the fact that everybody that's come into the tech army so far They're not just interested in in using the skills that they're they're hoping to get jobs with or that they've been furloughed from there. As you say, Rick, Ricky, you know, he's retrained through code clan, but he was a former accountant, but he loves his music and that kind of stuff. And he's contributed in all those different ways, really, for the tech army as well. So it's been absolutely superb to see everybody kind of rise to the occasion and get an opportunity to use to use both their hobbies and their skills, if you're like, you know, to the for the benefit of other people. Has it made you think differently, Chris, about how digital can potentially open things up for you further? Or is it is it just I mean, it seems to have been a fairly natural progression for you to kind of be able to deliver what you needed to do during the lockdown. I mean, is it does it give you bigger ideas for the future, and

Chris Mantle  11:50 
t's starting to, of course, we're a small charity and like many small charities and larger ones, as well, as our CEO says, every penny is a prisoner. So money money is tight and technology is one of the things that is just a bit further down the agenda. We haven't always been able to afford good quality technology. So atthe start of the Coronavirus, we had people starting to work at home, we had two laptops of which only one was really functional, other one promptly died a death. So these are the kind of things that we're up against. And so digital technology and the support that might be out there; the kind of ideas that we can start thinking of, weren't really in our consciousness as a small, financially struggling, not very tech savvy organisation. But this...and because our time capacity is restricted as well. So this is.. it's helped us in terms of time capacity. A additional support that tech army have given us is also planting germs for the food delivery app. This is something that none of us knew was a thing existed until these conversations started happening. Like 'oh, right, maybe we could plan our complex routes'. Because these thousand boxes that go out every week to all different addresses all over the city, it's never quite the same run. Yeah, so we were doing everything on paper. We had a member of staff who spent eight or nine hours a day in a small office trying to figure out delivery runs and none of us thought, well, maybe there's an app that can do this, you know. So it's really changing how we think all the time as well. And knowing there is this resource that cash strapped charities can call on is fantastic. And I think really is a game changer. And we're all living in this world now, where everything has changed much more digital and much more online, and techniques and techno, everything's changing. So it's fascinating and interesting, and I think we feel quite positive about this. And it's just support that we've never had never thought about before.

Kirsty McIntosh  13:50
And do you think that I mean, I know that digital engagement is a big challenge, you know, for some people and actually sort of, you know, trying to persuade people to either, you know, get online or sometimes even be able to afford to be online. I mean, do you? Do you think that the initiatives like this will sort of help bring more people into into the online environment? Because they see the benefit of, you know, being able still being able to access all the services that they were able to access before?

Chris Mantle  14:20 
That's a slightly difficult question to answer. I mean, you know, that complex problems require complex solutions. There's no one size fits all. Yeah, I think we do see high levels of digital engagement, particularly among the younger demographics that we work with. So for example, younger parents are very likely to have a smartphone and a fairly good at accessing things. But we also do work with people with learning disabilities. So that's can be a big barrier. And older people, we do a lot of work and training around older people, the malnutrition that I referred to earlier. For that demographic yes, perhaps digital engagement is much worse. So we see a really mixed picture and of our... actually having said that  some of our younger parents were mostly very good, we applied for funding to get tablets, some parents who were unable to access any type of online services. So now they've got tablets, they can engage with us and our cooking groups, but they can engage with everything else. And thinking, you know about the financial side of stuff and financial hardship, accessing online services from the state, for example.

Kirsty McIntosh  15:25 
It was absolutely fantastic talking to you, Chris, thank you very much for your time today.

Chris Mantle  15:28 
Thank you very much.

Kirsty McIntosh  15:30 
Thank you also Willie, we'll need to see that we'll come back and talk to you again at the next set of videos that come out. I have to say I've had a look at a couple of them and I'll be I'll be cooking tonight. Okay, thanks for your time.

I appreciate that was quite a long interview. But I really hope that you get a sense from Chris of the passion and commitment that many of the organisations that we're dealing with have for helping the people who need them. We're going to be returning soon in another episode, talking to Ricci Clark and Kim Anderson about the work that they were doing on the videos. We will also be coming back to talk about the food distribution work that we've been doing with Edinburgh Community Food and others. We'll save it for another time because it's an interesting story in and of itself. Coming up now we're going to be talking mentoring and music with one of the Tech Army's project managers, Andrew Rendle.

Hello, Andrew.

Andrew Rendle  16:25 
Hello, Kirsty. Thanks for joining me today.

Kirsty McIntosh  16:29 
First of all, could you please tell me how you joined the Scottish tech army?

Andrew Rendle  16:33 
Sure. So I finished my last contract in mid March. I floundered, floundered around for a week or two looking for something useful to do during lockdown and on a voluntary basis, because I knew take a while to get my next contract. And I saw Scottish tech army and somebody I know was posting about it on LinkedIn. I saw that actually on day one. And I had a quick look at the website. So yeah, that will do for me, that looks really interesting. So I was a first responder I signed up on day one.

Kirsty McIntosh  17:12 
Me too. I'm a first responder as well, we need to have a get together. We're actually focusing on mentoring, although you do many, many things within the tech army, so tell me a little bit about mentoring. How did you how did you get involved in it? How long have you been? How long have you been mentoring people for?

Andrew Rendle  17:32 
Well, I think I've been involved in some mentoring in various different ways for a number of years in different different companies, different roles I've had, I've had people reporting to me, I've run at times quite big teams. And that always creates the opportunity for doing something a bit more than just line managing people. And so yeah, many years

Kirsty McIntosh  18:00 
Sorry, could you give me an example of that? Where you mentoring is different from line managing 

Andrew Rendle  18:07 
Well, it's the example of pick might be quite an unusual one. One of my roles A number of years ago, I worked for a very large global company, where most of the workforce were Indian. And I had a team of the maximum 110 people out 5050, on shore, or in India. And I was fascinated by the whole cultural dimension of that. The folks that that work for me on that team was some of the best people I've ever had in a technical team. And there were several opportunities to come and figure out how we could help and support each other better. Which led to some really, really interesting conversations and actual lifelong friendships.

Kirsty McIntosh  18:58 
That's amazing, that's fantastic. And are you doing any mentoring with the Tech Army itself?

Andrew Rendle  19:03 
Yes, I've had, I would say two things, maybe two and a half that might fall within the normal definition of what mentoring is.

Kirsty McIntosh  19:14 
That's an interesting point, actually, what is the normal definition of mentoring? What is it? What does mentoring mean to you? What's the..?

Andrew Rendle  19:21 
So it's.. what it means to me is helping somebody with their, I guess, career development/personal development. And so it's something with a bit more of a long term horizon. So it's not about immediate delivery. It's not about what we're doing today, this week, even next week, and it's putting it in a context broader than the current current work or the current relationship.

Kirsty McIntosh  19:51 
So the ,the people that come to you for mentoring then have they identified that there's they have a problem that they need to address maybe in the longer term or is it actually that they just, they just want a guiding hand, you know, for the longer term as they progress through a particular part of their career is that they come to you?

Andrew Rendle  20:08 
Well, I think is more of the latter than the former. But both of the pieces of mentoring that I've been working with people on the I've started because we've, we've met, within the STA, and there were some things that we were both working on or or both interested in. And so, you know, the starting point was, was the relationship that was formed, and we were getting to know each other, and there was something that we were working on together. And that then just really, really naturally broadened out into a conversation about what's next. And you know, whether I could help that individual in any way.

Kirsty McIntosh  20:55 
And it's very much about the rapport, as you say, it's about the relationship between the two of you. There's obviously a significant element of trust there as well.

Andrew Rendle  21:02 
Yes, yeah.

Kirsty McIntosh  21:03 
So what do you what do you get from mentoring then? What does it do for you for you?

Andrew Rendle  21:07 
I'm quite extrovert I think people have spotted that. I am communicative. Much like yourself, Kirsty. I like having a good chat. And I do actually like helping people where I can. And that's not just because I'm some Mr. Nice Guy. I'm not always Mr. Nice Guy. And part of it is because I have been helped very significantly during my career by a number of people. And it isn't always the people that you would, you would envisage would provide that help actually do provide that help. So I'm putting that now in something broader than mentoring. I'm starting to talk about networking. And I'm really, really into networking. I think it's incredibly powerful. Now there are some there are some crossovers there but but I think the thing in common is you can get great deal of help from people in your network that can lead on to mentoring. And again, it's this bit about if I've been helped in my career, either in a networking or a mentoring scenario, I don't have to give back to that same person. I probably can't have but not so person, but I can give back to somebody else.

Yeah, it's very, very interesting. I think the the networking thing for me, I think, is very true, it's taken me a very long time to realise that you can actually reach out and ask for help from within your network. And actually, when the penny finally dropped, I realised I had a fairly big network. And as you say, it's not necessarily about the connections that are there. For me, it's about the connections I can make for other for other people. And I really like that, you know, you can have be having a chat with somebody and all of a sudden, you know, you say I knew somebody that that does that as well or did that or can help with that. And it's really nice to make the introduction and then actually, as you say, sort of step away, and hope that they that they in the future will do the same for somebody else that's very satisfying that say, and yeah, networking i think is particularly at the moment, it's so important that people understand the importance of building those bridges.

And there's a, there's a further piece, they're actually kind of like making a very solid link between mentoring and networking. And so one of the individuals that I was helping and mentoring within STA, I had a contact from somebody that I know very well in my network, who was looking for somebody for one of his or one of his businesses. And I had a chat with him. And you described the profile of what the requirement was, and, you know, I basically made an introduction, join the dots, and that led to that person getting a role, which is great. That was mentoring and networking just being crushed together.

Kirsty McIntosh  23:57 
You're gonna have, you're gonna have a queue of people at your door (laughter) looking for mentors..

Andrew Rendle  24:03 
Just to manage expectations, that's the one and only time in my working life I've ever been able to do that bit of matchmaking. So don't don't have your hopes too high, folks.

Kirsty McIntosh  24:16 
Yeah. That's That's wonderful, though. That's wonderful. I think it's really interesting. Lots of there's lots of different interpretations of what mentoring actually is. And I think it's only recently we've been having quite a lot of conversations about this. And for some people, it's a coaching role for some people. It's a hand holding role for some people, it seems almost like some kind of psychiatrists couch kind of role. I suppose in many ways. It's it's the best mentors are all of those rolled into rolled into one I suppose.

Andrew Rendle  24:45 
Yeah, yeah. No, I have way way back actually, in the first company I work for I did some coaching training. It was maybe quite avant-garde in the in the age of the dinosaurs when I started out, but that's a bit me all the way through, I tend to just adapt and use in all aspects of my working life what I think will work best. I certainly do like project management, I just do what I know will work may not be a traditional project management thing, but if it works, I use it as my, you know, I take the same approach into mentoring.

Kirsty McIntosh  25:21 
So if you're a first responder, then you have been in the tech army for, what three months Same as me, I suppose. That's actually really scary to think it's only been three months but but what has it done for you? I know that you've contributed greatly to the tech army, but what what have What do you got from it yourself?

Andrew Rendle  25:38 
I think the place I'll start, it's absolutely key to me. I absolutely love doing it. If I didn't, then I wouldn't. It's as simple as that. You know, we're all volunteers. I've absolutely loved it and I'm still loving it. Sadly, if I stopped loving it, that's probably when I'll stop volunteering and I'll go and do something else. I'll open a goose farm or something else. You know, I love it. I really enjoy it for various different reasons. You know, right from the start. I wanted to do something to help during the emergency and this, you know, I made various inquiries, various organisations looking for volunteers, not a lot happened STA came along and boom, everything started happening. Yeah. So there's that whole bit about, you know, wanting to, you know, do something for the public good. I've met some fantastic people. Kirsty McIntosh is one of them.

Kirsty McIntosh  26:36 
(Laughter) Shucks, thank you

Andrew Rendle  26:39 
You know, to me, there's an interesting behavioural thing about STA. Because we are all volunteers, you're only in it, if you want to be in it, you're probably only going to stay in it for a period of time after volunteering, if you're putting something in and getting something out. So you have to be quite "can do", you have to be quite delivery focused action orientated. So I think there's almost a sort of a Darwinian natural selection thing going on that, you know, the people who are in it and doing lots of stuff are actually quite similar type people.

Kirsty McIntosh  27:19 
Yes, that's that's a very good point. And has it changed your perspective on what you might do next, you know, in terms of, you know, working and things like that, have you?

Andrew Rendle  27:28 
Yeah. Yeah. Massively, massively.

Kirsty McIntosh  27:30 
Wow. So is that you're just there are some things you're just not prepared to do again in the future? Or is it actually given you a totally different, totally different direction?

Andrew Rendle  27:37 
I really like what I do on the contract project manager or work through my own limited company, and I really, really enjoy that been doing that for five years. And I would happily carry on doing that. But even when I set up a limited company five years ago, I thought, well, this isn't necessarily what I you know, the last thing I want to be doing before I retire being an old, crusty...I'm actually thinking about when I might retire, you know that there's some other stuff that I have wanted to do do want to do. And this period of time and you know, the opportunity and the SGA has opened my eyes and maybe created a few more opportunities for me.

Kirsty McIntosh  28:16 
Isn't it interesting, even us old hands can be taught something new through organisations like the STA. Okay, well, that was fascinating. Andrew, thank you very much indeed. I do want to talk to you about the White Striped Donuts, however, so could you tell me...

Andrew Rendle  28:34 
Never heard of them, never heard of them! They're rubbish...

Kirsty McIntosh  28:37 
Tell me a little bit about how it came about.

Andrew Rendle  28:42 
Okay, so I mean, that but that's a great example of having fun. Yeah, yeah, in the SDA, it's also a great example of something I think has been a real secret sauce for the STA and that's the donut calls. So the white stripe donuts started on a Donut call. It was was Kate, Chris, Mark and I, we met on a donut call on the 12th of May, we just got on really well, talked about a whole load of random nonsense. Nothing to do with STA or tech or anything else. And for some bizarre reason we started talking about Adele. Then Mark mentioned he played guitars and what have you. And a couple of days later, maybe even the next day, Kate posted on the donut little group chat some alternative Adele lyrics and they were really really good. She's sort of STA “if-ifed” some... an Adele song. I was like WOW, she did it really, really quickly. That, that just kept a bit of banter going. And then somebody actually it was me had the bright idea, you know, Seven Nation Army Scottish tech army. That's just that's just such a thing. But just really worked and it just just went on and on and on. And we ended up with the skunk project, as as we lovingly called it, then a bit of viral marketing just to wind up Alistair and Pete and Sarah at Hot Tin Roof (PR), and then the big reveal. So that was great fun.

Kirsty McIntosh  30:21 
It was awesome when it arrived on the general channel. On that, I think it was a Friday morning, I was just, I couldn't get the grin off my face. It was just it was just such a wonderful surprise. And you're right. I mean, the virtual water cooler that we've that we have within the tech army is, as you say, a secret sauce. And and long may it continue. I've made I've made. I've made some amazing connections, as you say, you know, through that, through that and it's lovely. They're actually most of the conversations. I've got absolutely nothing to do with tech. It's always got to do with something else. So that's great. So I understand, according to Alistair in last week's podcast that you're working on that difficult second album. When can we expect it to? When can we expect it to land?

Andrew Rendle  31:07 
Yeah, well, that's, you know, the, the fun continues if you like. So, you know, we put out a much wider call call to action and, you know, open invite to all volunteers. We've created a channel. I can't actually remember how many people we've gotten now, at least a couple of dozen and some amazing musicians and that with everything from tremendous vocal choral skills to pianos, guitars. didgeridoos would you believe it?

Kirsty McIntosh  31:41 
Didgeridoos? Wow. Wow. And then so are you putting together another video?

Andrew Rendle  31:45 
Yeah. First thing to say is anybody who's interested just join the channel, because there's, there's a number of things that can be done to help.

Kirsty McIntosh  31:55 
I think the best I could be would be a screaming groupie. But #white-striped-donuts if anybody's interested,

Andrew Rendle  32:02 
actually, Kirsty, I do have a role for you in the White Striped Donuts but maybe we'll maybe speak about that separately.

Kirsty McIntosh  32:07 
Okay.

Andrew Rendle  32:08 
So where we've got to with it is we've identified four songs, different volunteers have written alternative lyrics for all four of them. And two of them are quite well through laying down tracks and and vocals and video and what have you, and the other two are kind of on the back burner. And as regards when it all happens, you know, it's a it's a whatever pace we can, we can make it happen. There's no really compelling event. But as there's a few bolshie project managers in the group, probably at some point, somebody will say, right, it needs to be released on x date and that'll focus a few minds.

Kirsty McIntosh  32:55 
It'll be like the unfinished Symphony otherwise. it will never be done. It will never be done. That's absolutely marvellous. Well, listen, it's been really nice talking to you. Andrew, thank you very much for joining us on the podcast.

Andrew Rendle  33:06 
Great. Thanks very much Kirsty

Kirsty McIntosh  33:08 
One of the great joys of being part of the Scottish tech army is that you get to meet people like Andrew Rendle. And he did actually tell me what it is that he wants me to do with the White Striped Donuts and all I can say is he may well just get much more than he bargained for. Thanks for your time today. Please keep in touch. Let me know what you want to hear about. If you've got any great stories that you think we should be reporting on then please come back and let me know. In the meantime, bye for now.